Creating a culture of trust and bridgebuilding: One library’s transformation story-20260129 2059-1
Transcript
Participants
Chat
Transcript
WebJunction Webinars
0:00
Recording after today. We also have a t a once a month, monthly newsletter called Crossroads to stay up to date on what's happening at web junction. So I highly recommend that you take a look at that.
WebJunction Webinars
0:17
Okay, we are at 1201. I'm assuming my presenters are ready to roll. I am delighted, so I am Brooke Joyle. I am a program manager at web junction, and I am your host today. We are glad you're here. I am delighted to welcome Aaron Buzzbey, director at Clamas.
WebJunction Webinars
0:37
Public library system, Melissa Duncant Thomas, also at the same library system and Michael Hallman from the Urban Libraries Council to discuss a culture of trust and creating a culture of trust and bridge building. Thank you for being here. Take it away Melissa.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
0:55
Thank you so much, Brooke. I'm really excited to be here. Well, as Brooke said, I am Melissa Duncan Thomas. I am the community engagement coordinator at the Columbus Silence public Library system. In Columbus Mississippi, we're in the northeast portion of the state and somehow we completely missed getting iced in, but the.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
1:17
Any north of us has completely iced in, so I'm feeling very, very bad for all of those people right now. We are trying to stay warm over here. So today I'm going to be talking about, we are all going to be having a discussion about creating a culture of trust and bridge building in libraries. And so that means that I would.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
1:37
Really like to start with the 1st and most most important thing that I have discovered, which is in building a community centered library, which is your intent belonging and trust, and how those values really.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
1:57
Show up in everyday library practice. So let me go ahead and flip through. All right, so we're starting with intent. When I 1st got into library work, I was working at the circulation desk. I was getting my master's degree in criminal criminal justice and.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
2:20
And I did not have any intent to actually work in libraries long term. But as I worked the circulation desk and worked with the public, I knew that my personal intent was to help people, that's why I was getting my master's in criminal justice, and I discovered through public library work and working.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
2:40
On the front line that I could I could help people so significantly, and so when the adult services role came available at our library, I applied for it and I got it and it really became my full passion. But I did come from a background where numbers were the marker for success. They.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
3:00
They were the number one thing and so I was very concerned about like getting enough people to come to library programs to make sure that we could continue to have these library programs. But if you've ever done programming in a library, I'm pretty sure that you know that like that can get really discouraging. And, I didn't want to get bogged down in just being so concerned about are we having enough people come? And so I really had to, go, go internal and figure out what my intent was.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
3:33
It's for every single library program. So we do book clubs, we do writing groups, we do animate and mongo clubs, and these are all within adult focus. Although we do many all ages programming as well. And my intent for all of those are the exact same.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
3:50
And that intent is, did somebody leave feeling more connected than when they came in? That means that even if a program had just one participant show up, on paper, that feels really discouraging. That's one that's if that's your.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
4:10
Measure of success. It's not gonna feel great, but my intent was not for numbers. My intent was for, how people felt when they came in to the library, participated in a library program, and then how they felt when they left. Because how they felt when they left is, what's gonna tell me if they're gonna.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
4:30
To come back, and participate some more. So with the correct director, which thankfully I have always worked with a director who has encouraged that and encouraged kind of thinking outside the box a little bit, I was able to really explore different forms of programming. I was also.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
4:52
We're able to explore different times because a lot of our patrons gave us feedback on or the timing of our programs, they really wanted evening programs, which meant that I kind of had to recreate the way that my life looked in order to give to my job and run programs in the evenings.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
5:12
That meant I had to make mornings for myself. I had to just readjust readjust some things in the best way and all through the encouragement of my director and all with the intent of having people be more connected than when they came in.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
5:29
So, go on to the next slide. So belonging is the foundation of trust. This is something that I am very passionate about when I started out saying, well, why, why aren't people coming to these programs?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
5:49
Or what's going on with the consistency of attendance, and the the feedback that I got was yet again, that they wanted something very consistent. So a lot of our programs in the past have been one off on Saturdays or a random Tuesday lunch and learn and there's nothing wrong.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
6:10
With that. That's, that is completely great. But what we found really built our patronage when it came to program attendance was consistency. That meant that I started doing weekly programs running weekly programs for writing group and even for book club, which.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
6:30
Was a little bit different because normally you do read a book all together and then discuss it all in one go, whereas our weekly book club, we have three book clubs and two are the traditional format, but our weekly book club breaks down a book and we read two to three chapters every week and discuss those in detail. That also.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
6:50
Who leaves room for people to connect with each other, share their stories that the books brought up, what stories those were. So being consistent, respectful, and predictable and free from unnecessary pressure or judgment. People get enough pressure and judgment in their jobs, in their family lives, in even in their friendships sometimes, and we really don't have to require that in libraries. We really get to provide educational resources, we get to provide community base.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
7:25
These programs and we don't have to have any sort of measure of, you know, like, oh, you gotta take a test or you gotta do this, you gotta do that. Just low pressure was what I really wanted to lean into. Belonging builds trust because it signals that people are valued beyond transactions, and reduces fear of embarrassment or exclusion and creates confidence that li the library is a safe and reliable place. So I just wanted everybody to know exactly what they were getting coming in and exactly what they were getting when they were leaving.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
7:56
And part of that intent that I talked about in the beginning slides is something that I would even share with people because people will come in a little nervous, a little anxious at what the intent is, even though we know, ok, we're coming into writing group and we're gonna write. Sure, that is the intent, but the overall intent is for you to have some form of community case.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
8:18
Connection. And when you let people know that, sometimes it puts on the pressure, you just gotta know when to say what, use your best judgment. So don't put on the pressure and be like, you're supposed to connect with people. Don't, don't do that.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
8:35
So, how belonging practices build patron trust? Offering choice in how to engage, I really love this one because people are going to tell you how they want to engage, and it isn't always verbal. You can't always.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
8:54
You need to pay attention to people's cues, their body language, and just check in with people. We have one group that is a majority, very neurodivergent adults, and, they do not enjoy the same traditional discussion format. And you still we would kind of sit around in awkwards.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
9:14
Silence at times. But I realized that for the participants it wasn't awkward silence. It was literally just existing together and I was trying to force some sort of like conversation or discussion when really like that wasn't necessary at all. We have one participant from that particular program who, when they begin to feel uncomfortable, overstimulated for whatever personal reason, they will get up and leave. And they've asked me before if that's an ok thing to do. And, I assured them that absolutely.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
9:48
Absolutely it was and now they they'll just get up. I've gotta go and like run out whenever that happens. It's like every couple weeks and even that, you just don't need to like make people feel uncomfortable when they have to do that. Don't make things about yourself, the, that, that individual leaving the program, even if it did have to do with the program, you've just got to trust that they'll come to you with that feedback instead of trying to assume maybe what their intent for leaving early was.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
10:17
So we've got removing barriers to access. We already know that we public libraries, have removed the cost for participating in programs. I really hope that that's the case for all public libraries I know that it is for ours and that has just been so amazing, we have a very.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
10:37
The robust friends of the library group. But honestly, the programs that I've executed, I've tried to do it in such a cost effective way that if we didn't have that funding, we would still be able to have that community connection. But thankfully we do. So we do have the funding for now and.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
10:54
Now I have registration on there as one of the barriers. I can't say this for every area, but I know that for ours, people did not want to show up to programs that they had to register for because there was that pressure of, ok, what if I register for it? And then I can't attend, and so I just won't register and I just won't attend. And so far, not.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
11:14
Onwood. We have not like run out of supplies for like any of our craft programs, anything like that cause that was really why we had the registration to begin with. We wanted to make sure that we ourselves were prepared, but it, it turns out that it really discouraged a lot of people from participating, so I just, we removed that barrier and more people show up. So we have the welcoming non authoritative language and responding to needs with curiosity instead of correction. And the curiosity over correction.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
11:47
Is one that is twofold because you will have people sometimes say stuff and book clubs in our crafting groups that can sound a little out of pocket, but if you sat with your community for long enough and you know, ok, I know their heart in these different areas, I know where they're coming from in these different areas. So they've just.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
12:07
Said this really out of pocket thing, instead of completely just shutting them down and saying this isn't a space for this, offer a little curiosity of being like, hey, can you maybe like dig into that a little bit more? What is your intent? I love asking people what their intent is because it really kind of makes them sit back and, and maybe learn more about themselves as well.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
12:32
But the the two fold part of that is that sometimes those questions or those topics can come up and they feel hairy and and uncomfortable and not good, and you've got a lot of other people in the room feeling the same way and feeling very uncomfortable with whatever was said. And so if you as the leader can approach it with curiosity for the person who was speaking, but all.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
12:55
Also letting the group know that you recognize that there was maybe something a little off, you know, that was said and that we needed to explore, explore more. It makes it a safer space for all attendees involved. So that's that. And then we've got what builds over time from all of this. So we've been running these programs, and under this format since 2022, we're going into 20, we're in 2026 now, it's so crazy to me, but we have.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
13:27
So many returning patronts to all of these programs, and what I have discovered is that we just had a program at one of our local books bookstores this past Tuesday night and we had a bunch of new attendees. It's our 1st one of January for this particular book club and we had several new attendees.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
13:47
I was talking to one of the, one of the newer attendees, and she, I asked her how she found out about it and she said, well, I only moved to this area about six months ago and this is the very 1st like social outing that I've gone to have taken care of my dad. And, she said I was, when I was looking for where to go and what to do, the feedback that I received from three different people was that the library, the, the Columbus founds public library is where you go to make friends, as an adult, and that kind of I did not tear up.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
14:22
In the moment because I I acted cool and it was great, but it was, it, it was just one of those very impactful moments where I was like, ok, it's really getting around that this is the place where you go to like find community. So patrons really do ask for help without hesitation. They, they don't hesitate anymore. I kind of have to throw up some boundaries every once in a while. They definitely recommend the library to others and community members see the library as for people like me, which is so important to.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
14:53
To see yourself there in all of the different ways. And so one other really significant portion of all of this is the partnerships that were built because after figuring out my intent and the community connection and figuring out that our community in particular needed way more after hours programmed.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
15:15
Although I would like to state that we still do afternoons and weekends during the day programming as well. But we had to take it out of the library because our library closes at 06:00 P.M. and we needed a place in the community where we could go and hold these programs. And so where I started was, we did end up and we have ended up partnering with non profits, local businesses.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
15:43
Schools are local university and civic organizations. But where I started was with a local bar owner who had recently reopened after being shut down during COVID during the major COVID part of 2020 and, and I told him I was like, we're wanting to start this weekly book club.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
16:05
We want to do it on Thursday nights from seven to nine and I really can't offer anything besides the fact that there will be bodies in your in your establishment. And he said, you know, I've really been trying to get more community focused and community minded, so I would love to host you guys. And really it's just.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
16:22
Two tables for us with all of our chairs around which now it's become a lot more than two tables. We're we're up to about 15 people and it gets really chaotic, but so good, so good and such good discussion. And so that partnership with him really led to other partnerships where people would see like, oh, the library.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
16:42
Does their book club at, you know, the Princess. We had another, another establishment approach us for, they do pizzas, and so they wanted to do, the book it booked it is what we called it, close enough to pizza Hut, gave out pizzas to adults for their.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
17:02
Completing their adult reading challenges last summer. And that was gorgeous and so many adults, so many adults participated. And so that's just one example of, of how those partnerships have really helped us flourish and grow. And I never approached any of the people of the nonprofit directors, like none of these people with.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
17:27
What you need to do and things that you need to have happen, it was very much, hey, how can we as the library, get with you and make our community space a more welcoming spot? And everybody has been very excited to work with us there.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
17:47
So we've got the partnerships. These are some examples of what our partnerships made possible, which I have already talked about sub several of these things, and.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
18:03
Then we have got our, I'm excited to get into this discussion with Michael and Aaron because it really has been through the leadership that I have that has made all of this possible. I would not be able to do any of this had my director.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
18:19
Not approved everything along the way. So I'm really, really excited to get into this discussion. Thank you. So sorry, I'm gonna pass this off to Michael now. Michael is going to discuss with Aaron and myself.
Shamichael Hallman
18:39
Thanks a lot. That that was that was really great it was I have so many questions for you. I do want to make spaces very quickly for, for Aaron to, to share, you know, as we were building out this conversation, we wanted to make sure that you know sometimes these conversations can be either bottom up or top down, and we thought.
Shamichael Hallman
18:59
That really the beauty of this conversation was that that two of you would sort of be in conversation with each other of what does this look like from sort of both the top down and the bottom and and the bottom up approach. And so Aaron, kind of as you hear Melissa's thoughts, what are some initial reactions that you have?
Erin Busbea
19:16
Well, 1st I would like to say thank y'all for having us. Melissa is honestly, I'm very fortunate to have Melissa on staff here. You know, for us, we've always had pretty strong adult programming. I mean, we really have, we've had great programming, and so when we started this.
Erin Busbea
19:36
Like looking at other ways to kind of go out. It wasn't because what we were doing wasn't working. It was just that we realized that there was a need for reaching the people that could not make it to us during their work hours because they're at work or, you know, they have kids that they have to get home to in the afternoon or whatever. So Melissa just brought a fresh perspective to what this could look like for our library, and I think it's.
Erin Busbea
20:05
Been really beneficial. I joked yesterday I am the yes man to this whole thing and I will always be the yes man. I will encourage other libraries and library directors to be the yes man for trying things out because it's it's truly been beneficial to us. I've seen the numbers change across the years with our.
Erin Busbea
20:25
Our adult programming? How many people were coming to adult programming six, seven years ago versus now? And it's just amazing to see the growth. Oh.
WebJunction Webinars
20:38
I think Michael.
Shamichael Hallman
20:40
Sorry about that. Aaron, we we titled this conversation a story of transformation, right? And that transformation really does begin as much as you lift up melissa. It does begin with you. Tell us a little bit about the, you know, your journey to the library, how you got there and sort of what was the state of the library that you were trying to change so much.
Erin Busbea
21:00
Hi. Yeah. So I've been with, this library system, the Columbus Lands public library system since 2008. And when I started here, I was working circulation. I was over the circulation desk, so I was at the same spot that Melissa was, and I've kind of been in all areas of the library. I've done cataloging, I've done children's programs.
Erin Busbea
21:21
I've I've seen the library from so many different angles, and like I said, we've always had really great attendance. We've always had wonderful support here in the community, but knowing that we were missing out on specific demographic, that really mattered to me because we're always while numbers don't, numbers do not necessarily make or break us, it is nice to say, ok, well, we did get, you know.
Erin Busbea
21:45
Five of these people that we've never seen before coming into the library, I don't know if that answered your question. I feel like I got off topic there.
Shamichael Hallman
21:54
No, that's good. I I think that that certainly helps. You know, one of the things as I was listening to Melissa, and even as we were getting ready for this call, the both of each of you talked about engaging community and really kind of as you heard the community, not just doing that as a thought exercise, but actually responding to what you were hearing, right? Where sometimes as we go out and we ask people things, if we hear stuff that we don't necessarily want to do, we'll discard those things, but you were really intentional about engaging the community and then.
Shamichael Hallman
22:28
Taking that information then actually acting going. You want to talk a little bit more about that?
Erin Busbea
22:36
Melissa, is that you?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
22:38
Alright, yeah, I'll take that one. Yeah, so I, so taking that information from the community and really acting on it, I, you know, libraries are public funded and I think it's very important that people are getting their bank.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
22:56
For their book and so if I'm involved in any sort of bringing the community in, then the biggest part of that is actually listening to the community, which meant that I, was like putting out internal surveys to kind of ask people like, I I tried to come up with creative questions that weren't just like, why aren't you attending.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
23:16
Library programs but more like, oh, if you had this sort of program to attend versus this sort, which one would you choose, that kind of thing. And then also gave people time options where they're like, Oh wait, I can have a program at this time. So I kind of like gave them what I was willing to do as well because I am also a member of my community.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
23:36
And I have to remember that part of it. And so, yeah, I was really a lot of, getting out in Facebook groups and getting out in, in personal spaces and asking a bunch of questions and then saying, ok, collecting all that data and saying, ok, this is where the most people can, can do, do things at this time. So that was.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
24:00
Kind of like the, the groundwork that I laid there. Yeah.
Shamichael Hallman
24:05
And Melissa think it's I'm sorry. Oh I was just gonna say Melissa mentioned.
Erin Busbea
24:10
And like getting out into the community and everything. And I'll say that's really, I think that's truly important, but Melissa is selling herself short because Melissa is a huge part of our, she was a huge part of our community to begin with. She knows our community very well and that definitely helps, so I think people do have to realize that they've got to be kind of keyed into the community and.
Erin Busbea
24:31
You know, work on those foundations within the community, with just knowing, you know, with just knowing who runs the arts council or, you know, who, who are the coffee shop people. So Melissa has done a phenomenal job of already having those connections in the community and then building on those relationships.
Shamichael Hallman
24:48
Yeah excellent. And also as you were engaged, as you were sort of engaged in having these conversations, what were you hearing from folks? Well like what what were some things that you heard that maybe affirmed your direction and what some things that you heard that maybe said, oh, I hadn't thought about that before?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
25:03
Yeah, so a lot of people that I talk to, which again, I I work with primarily adults and especially at the time that I was kind of getting all of this started, a lot of feedback that I got, and it may have just been for our library in particular, again, I don't know this is the only one that I've worked at, but, it was oh well we did and we do have a very robust adult library programming thing, but what pops to a lot of people might.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
25:28
My age, like the thirties and forties, it's like, oh, the library is for kids programs and for like elderly people and like that was the like that those were the two ways and it was like it hadn't even occurred to them that the library could be for them and so that was kind of like getting that in my head of being like, ok, now how can I send the message that the library is at.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
25:52
Actually for you cause another thing that it was weird that I noticed is that people who saw the, the free of everything were not suspicious of it, but they were like, well, that's not for me, because I can pay, I can pay for my stuff. So leave that to people who can't afford it. And I had to basically convince some people.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
26:14
Well, not all because some people are very much like oh yes, libraries do offer free resources and, and automatically had to buy in, but I had to literally convince people it's not wrong or bad and you're not taking things away from somebody else by participating in this, by taking part in it. And that was like.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
26:34
Adjusting that, I think taking things out of the library was very helpful in that context. Keep people, people have this, I don't know, a lot of predetermined notions about the library and it felt like we kind of had to teach them what the library actually was and was about, which is still actively.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
26:54
Happening it's an ongoing conversation.
Shamichael Hallman
26:58
Great. And, and thinking particularly about the the programming itself, did the types of programs that you did, did they stay the same across all these spaces? I mean you talked about doing things in maybe local bar and other sort of spaces outside of the library, did those programs change from space to space or how did they evolve based on local, on the content?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
27:16
Absolutely. So they did, they did evolve on context, on the context of this space. The way that we run the weekly book club is very, we are a part of, we are a part of that bar, and when we started out there, they had us in that this this particular establishment is split up into like three.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
27:37
Large rooms, and they had us in the very front room right next to the bar and on most Thursday nights it would just be us in there when we very 1st started. And as the, the nightlife picked up and whatnot, we really were clearly getting in the way. We were, we were just front and center and everybody was having to kind of like crawl over us a little bit, which was a good problem. But I knew that there was this awkwardness of I knew that the owner did not want us to leave.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
28:06
But also wanted to move us. Like he was like, this is not working, but I don't know how to approach blah blah, blah. And and thankfully I kind of caught the the awkward feels on that kind of on the front end and, and was able to go and talk to him and say like we're fine, we're very flexible, we're good with adjusting. So that was more so just kind of adjusting.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
28:26
The the space. However, I will say, and it's not library related, but I think it's very beautiful, is that the book club that meets from seven to nine on Thursdays, the owner of that establishment has started a trivia night that meets directly afterwards that has become a whole thing of like the.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
28:46
The whole community that visit is visits that establishment has it out for like the library book club. Like they're gonna beat the library book club and trivia afterwards. So I never stick around for that. I, I keep a boundary for my own self, but all of our book club members stay and so it was kind of this beautiful thing that was created from the book club members being like, we want trivia.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
29:08
To it like turning into this whole other thing. But the way it's ugested in other areas has been like we did a writing group in a different bar, and that got really crazy and loud and that was not a good conducive space to do a writing group. But our read writing group members all just flowed with it, gave me the feedback, and we found a different spot to do.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
29:28
Put it in, so that's just kind of how it's gone. Oh, that's excellent.
Shamichael Hallman
29:32
I want to talk a little bit about about measuring success and to the audience members, we will, I will be coming to your questions here in just a bit, so please keep those coming. I see the ones that you've already put in the chat. I want to talk a little bit about about measurement, right? Because certainly we understand that attendance metrics are are very, very important. But, but, but we.
Shamichael Hallman
29:51
So you really talked about in your presentation, you looked at sort of beyond just the attendance, right? Or sort of the the like what what was sort of one let layer beneath that, right? So like the number of people who were returning the number of people who, who when they did come, they said, oh, this was a positive experience for me. Sometimes these aren't things that I think that we captured. And so Aaron I really want to talk.
Shamichael Hallman
30:11
To you about kind of as a director, how did you communicate or really champion that shift of maybe going straight from just, just a number of people that showed up to like this more nuanced, this more robust way of understanding that and and sort of how did that, how did that go over to maybe staff who just were maybe only thinking about more traditional metrics before that?
Erin Busbea
30:32
I mean we haven't completely rejected the traditional metrics, of course we still keep the numbers, we still submit the stats and everything, but when you're pairing the numbers with the real stories, with the stories that Melissa is coming back to the library with, with the.
Erin Busbea
30:52
The Stories about the impact that the people that attending these events are sharing with her. I think for me that helps me sell what we're doing easier. The good thing is, is I have a really great staff. We have a small staff, we have 14 of us on staff, and we are all very supportive of each other in our programming and in our.
Erin Busbea
31:12
Are endeavors. That's the big thing right there. I also have a very supportive board. They, when I come to them and I say, oh, hey, by the way, we're doing this, they usually have one or two questions that are like cool. How's it going? Everything going well? But I think.
Erin Busbea
31:28
For us, you know, the library is the story. I mean, the library is a story and the people that come to the library, they're sharing their story, they're sharing things, and Melissa has shared so many stories with me of people that have made comments about how these different programs have impacted their life. I mean, to the point of.
Erin Busbea
31:48
You know, this person may or may not be around much longer, but then they found a community and I think that right there speaks volumes. So for me, it's numbers are great, the numbers are wonderful, but I enjoy being able to go to our city and our county officials and to our state legislators and sharing these types of stories with them because these are these are the stories that they need to hear about the people that are in their area, their community, you know, how the library is impacting the community for the good.
Erin Busbea
32:18
Okay.
Shamichael Hallman
32:19
Yeah, and kind of coming back to something that Melissa said earlier, that those are actually the stories also that bring new people in, right? That those are the stories that really, help people see. Oh, that's it is a place for me. There is a, it is a place for, for people like me. So that that's actually that's really good. I I wanna maybe stay there for a little bit Aaron cause this, this really.
Shamichael Hallman
32:38
It feels like also a conversation that that talks about culture, right? Certainly you've got Melissa out, you know, so in the community, so that means she's off the desk, right? That means that's one less person who's doing that. What is what it look like from a culture perspective? How how did you sort of shift the culture so that both Melissa felt safe to be off the desk and actually be in the community number one, but then that the other staff felt like oh ok well this there this is this is the right thing to be doing. What does that look like for you as a leader?
Erin Busbea
33:08
Yeah. That's something that we have really worked on, the last three years for sure. You know, we used to have kind of the traditional schedule here at the library. Monday through Saturday, you know, our staff has changed at times we've had, you know.
Erin Busbea
33:27
20 staff down to 14 now. With that of course comes like a little bit more in compensation, which is always nice for our staff, but we have a dedicated circulation staff, but we're all, all hands on deck anytime it's needed. But we also, we're very fortunate for some reason our work schedule has always.
Erin Busbea
33:47
Always been 37 and a half hours a week, which is, I don't know if that was a Mississippi thing back in the day because there were several library systems in Mississippi that also have like that weird 37 to 39 h, but with that, I've been able to work with my staff, and we've created four day work weeks for.
Erin Busbea
34:07
Our staff, they have kind of rotating schedule, and I think that helps a lot because they're not, you know, they've, they've got their, they've got their schedule, everyone has their schedule, they know what they're doing, they know where they're at, but they also know that if they need a break or if they need to take some time off, all they have to do is talk to their supervisor.
Erin Busbea
34:27
Melissa and I have this conversation about burnout a lot of times Melissa has come to me and said, What if we do this program or what if we add in this? And I'll say, ok, but what about your schedule? Like, how or do you want, do you want to add more on? Do you want to commit yourself to doing something every single saturday? I think that was one of the last conversations we had with how.
Erin Busbea
34:47
Having more Saturday program, it's like, ok, that's great, but do you want to commit yourself to that? Because I don't want you to commit yourself to that and then get to a point that you're burnt out. So for leadership, it's being open minded and thinking about thinking outside of the box, you know, the schedule doesn't have to look like what we've been trained that it has to look like and for staff to have that open communication with their leadership to say, hey, I want to try this or hey, I, I feel like I'm a.
Erin Busbea
35:17
Feel overwhelmed or I need a little bit more support. And again, I, I realize I'm very fortunate, with my staff and with my situation in my library system that I have, have such flexibility in what we're doing here and I know that's not the case for everyone.
Shamichael Hallman
35:35
Yeah, for sure. And Melissa I mean, as much as having a great leader who's open to those things, like you have to also open up and say, hey, this is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I would like to do. I want to try this thing. Talk to us about just kind of what that was like for you to go to Aaron with some of those requests.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
35:53
Yes, absolutely. I've been thinking about this a lot, because I, I think that I'm not unique in that I'm very rejection sensitive. I used to have a real problem with asking if I could do stuff in other work settings in even personal life settings because I really didn't want to hear the word NO, but I over time have realized that like that's a practice. You have to literally just get used to hearing the word NO and knowing that like.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
36:24
Trusting, it's not knowing, it is trusting that whomever you're like communicating with, is saying NO for the right reasons and Aaron and I really were able to establish that trust of just like she said, like she did, she did say NO to my, my requis.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
36:44
A/suggestion of like oh I could do these programs every Saturday and she herself was like, that's a lot on of your personal time that you're like giving up all of your evenings and then a Saturday too like I don't think that's a good idea. And when I like went back and reflected, I was, there was NO part of me that was upset that she said NO because I trusted that she was looking out for my wellbeing. And there I have worked under people in.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
37:10
In the past who if I came up with an idea or wanted to do something, it wasn't just yes, do it. It was also yes, do it and do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. And, and it led to a lot of burnout on my part. So it's been, it's been a process of, of getting used to hearing.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
37:30
No, even though I actually don't hear it very often, but trusting that that NO is not coming from like a, you're an idiot place because that is, that is what I was really afraid of for a long time was like, oh, if I get told NO, that means I had a really bad idea. And that's definitely not all the case, always the case. So just have to put.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
37:50
Practice I I My biggest thing is ask and over communicate probably and maybe doesn't appreciate all the over communication, but in order for us to both have that trusting dynamic, I need to be really upfront with like where I'm going and what I'm doing, like both on paper and physically like out in the.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
38:13
Heats kind of thing. So yeah, just practice practice asking questions and getting used to hearing NO, and you'll probably hear yes more often than you will know. Yeah.
Shamichael Hallman
38:24
Great. We're gonna turn to the, to, to the audience here. Maybe one final question for you all. So you now are at a place where you have a thriving library and that you, you have people who are coming for the 1st time and saying this is a place that really feels great for me, you have people who are are coming a second time, right? You have people who were coming because someone invited them to come. All of these are really incredible metrics that didn't happen overnight, right? This, this, this, this was was a number of very small experiments. This was a number of really, sometimes.
Shamichael Hallman
38:59
Interesting conversation that you were having as a staff. This was sometimes the the the the the results of a lot of community engagement, a lot of conversations with the community. For folks who are listening today though, maybe who are not at that place, the library hasn't quite reached that point. What's one small thing you think.
Shamichael Hallman
39:19
What they can do. Aaron I'm hoping that you will sort of address leadership in this and then Melissa I'm hoping you will address some frontline staff or maybe outreach folks. Aaron, you wanna start us off?
Erin Busbea
39:29
Sure. I think for, for leadership, you know, if you're going to your director or your supervisor, I think having kind of like a clear idea of what you're wanting to do, going in with that is gonna be great. And then for leadership making sure that you're setting.
Erin Busbea
39:48
And Clear and consistent boundaries or expectations, you know, follow through on, you know, if you're gonna support the staff, how are you supporting them? You know, I don't know. I mean, I feel like Melissa and I, we've done this for so long now that we're, it's hard for me to think of how, how a person would, would go about it cause I'm just like, ok, yeah, let's do it. Let's try it and see what goes wrong, but with leadership.
Erin Busbea
40:17
But just at least, you know, if you have hesitations, have that open communication. That's, that's the big thing and that's not something that I practiced with Melissa it's honestly with all staff is we constantly have conversations about, hey, let's, let's make sure that we're continuing to have open communication about everything that's going on so that everybody is in the loop of what's going on, you know.
Erin Busbea
40:37
If you're gonna be out of the building for a program that you're doing later in the night, make sure that, you know, that that's being communicated, so there has to be communication throughout the whole library for that.
Shamichael Hallman
40:50
And listen.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
40:52
All right. Yeah, so I would definitely also go down the communication line, but this for frontline staff for anybody doing programming, I would say a small place to start is, I mean, it really will depend.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
41:07
Obviously on your system and your community. But if you're having any feelings of like something doesn't feel right with my position or I'm I'm not I'm not achieving what I would like to or I'm not, you know, like there's just maybe like a little discomfort you're not feeling right, I would go back to your intent, figure out what your intent for your job is, maybe even figure out your intent for your personal life.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
41:32
And that really kind of helps you focus and and helps you get started on where, where, you know, like that's the smallest place you can start and then you can say, ok, I really wanna do a book club and I want to do it in this non traditional time and then plan it out and over communicate it.
Shamichael Hallman
41:49
Yeah, great. We have had some really great questions and and the chat here now. I want to I wanna get to a couple of these, really, really great stuff. So Eric I wanna start with you because there's a question and you've talked a little bit about this, but like what does this actually look like from a staffing perspective with having Machia I mean having Melissa in the community.
Shamichael Hallman
42:09
After hours, like, like, what does that look like? How are you is she spending extra time? Is this, is this kind of like her regular time and she's just outside of the library now? Like, what does that look like from a staffing perspective?
Erin Busbea
42:19
So we've done a lot of work on figuring out what schedules look like and there are some, you know, that we, I know Melissa's schedule, she has a set schedule every week. Now there's times where she might have a Saturday program or like this week she had a program on Tuesday night that's not a normal.
Erin Busbea
42:39
Normal week for her, so I know that she has a Tuesday night program once a month. Otherwise she has Tuesday nights off so she's not doing that. So we constantly again communication those weeks that she has programming that's outside of her normal times that it's set, like a Saturday program or the Tuesday night program. She can.
Erin Busbea
42:59
Keeps up, she'll send me, we use this website, it's like time card calculator.com or something like that and she'll put her hours in and she shoots it to me through email and says, hey, take a look at this. Does this look like it's calculated, right? Here's what my hours are. And I've got it that I can pull from. But otherwise, I know what her schedule is. I know that she is at Antime and Monga Monday nights and she.
Erin Busbea
43:23
She's here until 08:00 at the library. I know that, you know, Tuesday she's out, Wednesday she's got writing group Thursdays she's at the Princess bar from seven to 09:00 for that. And so she's working within her, she works within her time. She works within her 37 and a half hours. There's NO NO going over. You know, we're very careful of.
Erin Busbea
43:43
About that making sure that, you know, if you work 37 and a half hours, that's all you've got to work. I'm not expecting them to pull extra time and put in more time than what they're getting paid for, because at the end of the day, again, I don't want her to feel, you know, a grudge against me for making her work extra time, but also it's just, I mean her time at home is her time at home.
Erin Busbea
44:06
Well, she's not at work, so she does, you know, we do follow our time very carefully.
Shamichael Hallman
44:10
Thanks for that clarification. We got another question particularly around outreach, and the question is, how do you recommend gathering community feedback when you are more geographically isolated from the city that you serve?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
44:21
So I don't know how popular this one will be, but, social media has been the biggest, the biggest spot for me, and it's been uncomfortable because I, I was not always, in this role obviously I've talked about my background a little bit, but a full transparency, like I used to be like an internet bully. Like I used to like bully the old people in our neighborhoods.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
44:47
In 2020 when they wouldn't wear their masks, like I was like in there like where are you masked? And I really had to do a lot of like, you know, take that back. I, I didn't take anything back, but I used social media a ton and specifically, I don't know if every city has this or every place has it, but we have our little Columbus west.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
45:07
What's going on like wherever it is that everybody just seems to post to, and that's where I got so much of, of this. And a lot of people attend programs who don't have social media now, but a lot of them literally heard about it from people who did have social media, so that was a big part of.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
45:27
That, if I were not like I, I literally live in the downtown area so I can walk out and and go talk to all of these business owners. If I, if I weren't in the position to do that, I would have to rely heavily, heavily on social media.
Shamichael Hallman
45:41
Great. A question for both of you all, and this is around Melissa, so as you are you again you're doing a lot of unique programming in a lot of different spaces, how are you also thinking about like prep time? Like how much of that, how much of that is included in in your schedule versus actually doing the program itself?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
46:02
Yeah, so I, I go with a very like get in on Monday mornings and like basically dump all of the things in my brain onto a piece of paper of what I need to get done that week, which means program preparation, social media.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
46:20
All of this stuff, and I at this point kind of know how long each of those things are gonna take me and I break it down day by day of like, ok, I generally spend probably two to 3 h depending on the program, two to 3 h per week, like just making sure like everything is prepared.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
46:40
I would like to say that I'm in a lot of Facebook groups for libraries and I see a question posed in those groups a ton, that is, are you reading the books for book club? The people who are leading the book club, do you allow your staff to read those books on library time? And I think that that is the craziest question because while I am not putting reading the book above any other work, I still do the reading for the book club and come up with my.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
47:12
Questions and everything like that. I do it on library time. That is work. And, I just the amount of times I've seen that question posed, it's ild to me. It's like I, anyways, I'm just saying that like that does count as work. Reading does count as work and when you're coming up with those questions and whatnot, so I.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
47:32
I I spend two to 3 h since a lot of these programs are very consistent and have the exact same format, I don't have to like writing group probably takes about 15 min to prepare for every week cause I just pick out the prompt and get stuff ready, but book club takes two to 3 h sometimes depending on how much we're reading and, and what all I'm taking notes on. And there are several other programs that don't really take a whole lot of, of pre planning, so, yeah.
Shamichael Hallman
48:00
Yeah, great. No, I was gonna say Melissa, it might be really a good idea.
Erin Busbea
48:06
Yeah like the how you've also used the social media to kind of bring in people that can also do programming for us that you know they have expertise in something and we wanna share it.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
48:19
So, yeah, absolutely. That I'm I am a big fan of a Google form. I'm always coming up with Google Forms to ask people questions. I love to pull people. And, one of the things is that I've gotten a lot of feedback on different programming that people have wanted in town, but I don't have that expertise and honestly, I.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
48:40
I do believe in paying people for their work. Absolutely. I think that's so important and also I think it's really important that if you have a skill that you can share with your community and you're able to do it for free or for volunteer, I think that that is very valuable as well. And so I created a form last year and sent it out.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
49:00
Out via social media, for if you had any unique like skills or just some sort of hyperfixation knowledge that you wanted to share with the world or with the Columbus community. Could you do that? And we've gotten so many cool programs from that. We had a, somebody who was an expert in funeral and morning history come and do a program. We had a spider expert and all of these people I would have never known that they existed. Had I not like just thrown this form out and said, hey, we're a public library.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
49:34
We'd really like for you to, you know, come present with us. And, and there is a vetting process not just like open to, to let everybody come do everything, but that's been a really great way to include the community in doing their own programming.
Shamichael Hallman
49:52
Or anything else you wanted to add to that.
Erin Busbea
49:56
No, I just, it's it's open to us being able to have some really interesting programs.
Shamichael Hallman
50:02
Yeah. And, and, and listen you you mentioned that you you're vetting there. What what's what can you talk a little bit more about like what that what maybe times you said NO to someone or like how do you know that it's gonna actually be a good partnership versus maybe not so much?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
50:16
Yeah, so actually so far I haven't had to say NO to anybody. We did have one individual who signed up and wanted to do a program with us and it was great. It was for writing and essentially when it comes to the vetting process, I just have a ton of questions that are essentially.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
50:36
Actually like, like almost like you're applying for a job, you know, of like what your experience is in these areas. And the way that people will respond, you can really tell whether or not they are actually an expert in their, in their field, which so far everybody who has signed up has definitely been an expert in their field.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
50:54
But, I did have an individual sign up to do like writing some writing workshops and he was really disappointed with the attendance. He only had one person come to the 1st one and I always prep prepare my presenters for like that could be what it is. For us, that is still success because.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
51:14
Somebody has still left here with something, but he was really disappointed and he let me know, and it was after that process, he didn't, he, he was signed up to do a four week, like series and he told me after the 1st one.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
51:31
I'm not interested and so then that helped me come up with yet another thing of, ok, if you sign up and you agree to do a program with us, you do actually have to commit to the time that you, that you said. Cause, you know, I was being a little more loosey goosey with the ok yeah like we'll, we'll do it but that interaction did make me.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
51:51
Realize, that I, that I had to have a few more like boundaries in place with how I did that, but it really wasn't uncomfortable. I, you just have to, you just have to not take things personally. Honestly, that's the biggest part of it.
Shamichael Hallman
52:09
Yeah, maybe one final question here, you talked about using social media for some of that outreach and particularly maybe for parts of the parts of the the the community that aren't so close to the library. The question was asked, are you just asking questions when you're doing that work or are you or are you also asking for feedback? Like, like, are you just promoting? Because we know that there are sometimes where we're just trying to get a word out about the event or are you trying to get like actual information about some of some of the things that you were asking about earlier?
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
52:38
I always ask for feedback. I, so I will admit that I, again, I've worked in in jobs in the past and they have been like kind of event planning jobs when I was a bartender and people would give me feedback all the time that I never asked for. I I couldn't stand it, I hated it. It was very frustrating.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
52:58
But this job is totally different and I, really think that like, sorry, I got I got distracted because I started thinking about how at ARSL several years ago I learned that like loneliness was one of the biggest causes of death, and that's what helped me come up with.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
53:23
My intent was that connection that people leave with and so in order for people to feel connected, like I have to know like what makes them feel connected. And so if something is happening at a, at a library program, I need them to know that they, they can give me feedback, so yes, I am always, always asking for feedback so that people know that they can, they can give that at any point. And.
Melissa Duncan-Thomas
53:48
Sometimes they utilize it and other times I thank them for it and go on about my day. I really haven't had anybody come back to me and say, hey, I gave you this feedback and XYZ didn't change. Like I've never had that scenario happen because a lot of times when you at least acknowledge that they have said that and then sometimes explain why either it's not possible or it is possible or your timeline XYZ, people are social with that. They really just want to be heard. They really want to be heard and listen to.
Shamichael Hallman
54:19
Yeah, thank you all so much. Melissa and Aaron, this has been great. I know it's been very helpful for those that have been listening, and we're gonna bring the web junction team back in as we get ready to close today's session.
WebJunction Webinars
54:34
Great. I am broken I'm just gonna close this out here. Thank you so much. It was a really interesting conversation. I think we have, we all took a lot away. I want to make sure you know about a resource that.
WebJunction Webinars
54:52
Irix Web junction, the urban libraries council, are collaborating on. This is a, there is a collection of bridge building resources, so if you're interested in digging in more to this work, there's a real range of resources that we've collected and curated, and I think that you will find some.
WebJunction Webinars
55:12
Think there that might be helpful, so would be remiss if I didn't.
WebJunction Webinars
55:15
Point that out and we hope that you will dig into those a little bit more. We also have a community of practice that you could join, and if you if you poke around on the link that I sent you will find it. I want to make sure this is probably pretty hard to read, but if you.
WebJunction Webinars
55:32
Download the slides you will see, you'll be have the contact information for sure Michael, Aaron and Melissa if you wanna reach out. When you leave the webinar today, you will be asked, prompted to take a survey. We'd love to get your feedback and we'd love to hear what you'd want more of in terms of future webinars. We also, you will get that re.
WebJunction Webinars
55:52
Link to the recording, you will get your certificate for live attendance and all the chat link as well within 24 h. So thank you Aaron Schmikael, and Melissa. Thanks everyone for being here and for a really great conversation. Have a good rest of your day.